Published on 20 April 1978 in the Maoist weekly L'Humanité Rouge, this rather revolting interview with the leader of Democratic Kampuchea, conducted by "friendly" Yugoslav journalists, takes stock of the situation after three years of "cultural revolution". It is an interesting historical document, because few Westerners were able to visit Cambodia during this period, but it is also of value only in revealing the approaches of "Brother Number 1" in his vision of Cambodia's future, a vision in which the sad fate and real suffering of the Cambodian people during the Pol Pot years are obviously not mentioned.
Extracts
L'Humanité Rouge: "Three years ago, on 17 April 1975, the Kampuchea Revolutionary Army entered Phnom Penh and liberated its entire country. The people of Kampuchea, finally masters of their country after centuries of slavery and dependence, and having at the same time broken the old capitalist and feudal relations of production, devoted themselves with the same strength as during the war of national liberation to the reconstruction of their country. He is now building his socialist homeland, under the leadership of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, which guided him to victory. In this issue we publish large extracts from the interview given by the Secretary of the Central Committee of the KCP and Prime Minister of the Government of Kampuchea, Pol Pot, to a delegation of Yugoslav journalists who visited the country in March".
Q : Respected comrade Pol Pot, you will soon be celebrating the third anniversary of the liberation of your country. Could you tell us what you have achieved in building and rebuilding your country over the past three years?
I'm happy to answer your question. Over the last three years or so, we have achieved a fair number of satisfactory results in the recovery and building of the country, but first of all I would like to tell you that we still have a lot of work to do. The first significant result is that we have solved the agricultural problem, particularly in the rice-growing sector. Solving the problem of rice production means having enough rice to feed our people.
In 1976, our plan called for a yield of three tonnes of paddy per hectare. We achieved 80-90% of this target, which enabled us to improve the living conditions of our people and also to export rice. In 1977, our plan called for a yield of three tonnes of paddy per hectare for one harvest and six tonnes per hectare for two harvests a year. We achieved almost 100% of this plan, which meant that paddy production in 1977 was much higher than in 1976, improving the living conditions of our people and increasing the quantity of rice exported.
Our motto is: "If we have rice, we can have anything", because the people can eat their fill, we have rice to export and we can import the products we need. The results we have achieved in agricultural production are based on the fundamental water schemes we have already put in place. These water schemes are an important asset that will ensure rice and agricultural production in the future. And once the agricultural problem has been solved, other sectors such as industry, crafts, the social and cultural sectors can also develop from this base.
Another significant result is that we have eliminated malaria by 90%. As a result, the health conditions of our people have improved significantly. Another significant achievement is the fundamental elimination of illiteracy, which was a blemish on the old society. It's true that in the old society there were faculties, lycées, collèges and primary schools in the cities, but the majority of the rural population was illiterate. Now, we have fundamentally solved this problem. Our people can read and write. These are the foundations that will enable our people to gradually increase their cultural level. It's not just a part of society, but the whole people who can learn and study. We are building on these foundations to develop education and instruction. As for the other results, they are less striking, but I would like to tell you that we have created and developed the health network throughout the country. Each cooperative has its own medical centre and a centre for manufacturing traditional, national and popular medicines.
We have doctors all over the country, in all the cooperatives and even in the most remote parts of the country.
The level of these doctors is still elementary, but by building on this base, we will gradually develop their skills. As far as crafts and workshops are concerned, there have been no spectacular achievements. But we have created a network of workshops everywhere. Each cooperative has its own crafts and workshops. These are the foundations for developing the craft industry and enabling it to move gradually towards industrialisation. These are a number of significant achievements. They have been achieved thanks to the efforts of our people, under the leadership of our Communist Party of Kampuchea. The people work with their own hands, see the results of their work and are enthusiastic about them.
Q : During our brief stay in your beautiful country, we saw evidence that your revolution is making a radical break with the past. What model of society are you building?
We don't have a model for building our new society. The Special National Congress held at the end of April 1975 made it clear that the decisive role in the revolution, in the war of national liberation, was played by the workers and peasants who make up the overwhelming majority of the population. It is this working and peasant people who bore the heaviest burden in the revolution, and it is this working and peasant people who must benefit most from the achievements of the revolution, both now and in the future.
The preamble to our Constitution also stipulates this point. Our aspiration is to build a society where happiness, prosperity and equality reign for all, where there is no exploiting class and no exploited class, no exploiters and no exploited, and where everyone participates in the work of production and in national defence. It is on this basis and with this aim that we are building the new society. Thus, the building of the new society is undertaken in accordance with the aspirations of the people as a whole, and in particular those of the workers and peasants who constitute the overwhelming majority of the population.
If the people believe that the path followed in building this society is the right one, they will continue along that path. If, on the other hand, they are not satisfied, they will decide otherwise. It is up to the people to decide. In our experience, we rely totally on our people in the revolution, as we did in the War of National Liberation.
Q : From what we have seen in this phase of your revolution, you have put all your national forces into developing agriculture. Do you intend to develop industry as well, and how do you intend to create the technical base, i.e. how are you going to train the managers needed for this, because at the moment, as far as we know, you have no universities or technical schools?
We have objectives and plans for rapidly developing industry. Based on agriculture, we are striving to develop industry. We believe that to have an independent economy, we need to develop agriculture, industry, crafts and other sectors. So this is a direction we're focusing on. But to build industry, where do we find the capital? We rely on agriculture for that. For example, we have established trade relations with our Yugoslav comrades. We export agricultural products and import industrial products, both for agriculture and for industry. At the same time, we have a policy of rapidly training a large number of national technicians.
If we talk about faculties, higher and secondary education as before, they may seem non-existent to you, but we are training technicians from the ground up. In the cooperatives, there are several specialised workshops where studies are closely linked to production work. It's the same in the factories, both in Phnom Penh and in the provinces (...). We train our technicians from the ground up and raise their technical level as they go along. They take part in production work, and they acquire concrete experience, both positive and negative, which helps them to progress. Before the Liberation, some of you had already been to Kampuchea several times. At that time, there were very few national technicians. There were many more foreign technicians. Now, we attach great importance to training national technicians. (...)
We are paying a great deal of attention to this problem of industrial development and the training of national technicians. We will raise the level of our national technicians by our own means. We believe we can do this to a certain degree. By closely combining studies with practical experience, they will gradually gain experience. They will then go on placements in friendly countries where they will study and increase their scientific and technical knowledge. These are the principles on which we base our work. But we will only send our trainees to friendly countries.
Q: Could you explain why you have abolished the role of money and the trade network? Is this a passing trend in the social and revolutionary transformation of your society or a model of society that you are going to insist on in the long term?
With regard to the role of money, the wage system and trade, I would like to say the following:
In 1970-1971, we had already liberated 75% to 80% of our country. At that time, we had political power and military power, but we didn't have economic power: the economy was in the hands of landowners and capitalists. The economy was in the hands of the landowners and capitalists, who hoarded all the production because they had money (...) As for us, we had nothing. The population had a lot of problems with food. So did our army. These difficulties had repercussions on the War of National Liberation. After studying the situation carefully, we decided to set up cooperatives to take charge of the economy, agricultural production in the countryside, management, distribution, supplies and exchanges, both between cooperatives and between cooperatives and the state. This is how we were able to take control of agricultural production and solve the problems of people's living conditions.
The people were enthusiastic about this and sent their children into the army to fight the enemy. As the cooperatives helped each other and developed exchanges of products, the role of money gradually diminished. By 1974, it had diminished by 80%. Before the Liberation, only the State used money. It used it to buy various products in the non-liberated zone for the needs of the liberated zone under its control. After these experiments, we consulted the people, who felt that the currency was of no use because the cooperatives had already been able to trade with each other without using it.
So by that time, in the liberated zone, which covered more than 90% of the country and had a population of nearly six million, we had already solved this problem. When the population of the towns was transferred to the countryside, it was taken care of entirely by the cooperatives. This practice has meant that we have not had to use coins until now. What will happen in the future? That depends on the people. If the people feel that the currency should be used again, we will use it. But if they don't think it's necessary, they will decide accordingly (...).
THE WAGE SYSTEM
As far as the salary system is concerned, there are also habits acquired in the past, in the revolutionary movement, especially during the War of National Liberation, there were no salaries either for cadres or in the army. As for the inhabitants, they didn't get paid either. Before the Liberation, in the liberated zone, the cadres, the army and the population - almost six million people - had already got used to living without pay. We noticed that, previously, the majority of our people had no salary. Only civil servants had salaries. So, with these habits acquired, the population of the towns has joined the cooperatives. Civilian cadres, army combatants and workers continued to live according to the supply system in force during the war. We believe that this avoids a heavy burden being placed on the people and allows money to be set aside primarily for national defence and construction. What will happen in the future? That depends on the specific situation and the people.
THE TRADE NETWORK
As far as the trade network is concerned, the State and the cooperatives work together to organise it. The State collects the products of the cooperatives and distributes them throughout the country or exports them abroad. The state imports products from abroad for distribution throughout the country.
Q : If we have understood correctly, Democratic Kampuchea has all kinds of problems and difficulties with neighbouring countries. What do you think, and how can you solve these problems?
The main difficulty stems from the fact that we are sticking to the position of independence, sovereignty, relying on our own forces, deciding our own destiny. This position upsets certain countries, the expansionists and imperialists. But we believe that by sticking to this position of independence, of sovereignty, of relying on one's own forces, our difficulties are much less serious than those we would encounter if the nation and people of Kampuchea were subjugated or disappeared... how can these difficulties be resolved? This problem depends on factors on both our side and the opposing side. Successively, we tried to resolve this problem through meetings and negotiations. Immediately after the Liberation, in June 1975, myself and other leading comrades went to Hanoi. We decided to go there and showed our goodwill in the search for a solution to the problems, but there was one, that of the borders, that we had to discuss. We said that Kampuchea only wants to live in peace, and that in order to preserve, develop and strengthen the friendship between the two countries and the two peoples, it considers the current borders that Vietnam solemnly recognised in 1966-1967 and undertook to respect, as the State borders between the two countries.
Nor have we claimed an inch of territory. The Vietnamese refused to respond because they had greater ambitions: to take over the whole of Kampuchea in the form of an "Indochinese Federation", sending several hundred thousand to millions of Vietnamese to settle there every year. After thirty years or more, the people of Kampuchea would become a national minority. This is very clear.
In May 1976, we invited the Vietnamese to come to Phnom Penh to negotiate. At first, they didn't want to come. When they arrived, they told us they had come because we insisted. During the negotiations, Vietnam rejected the borders that it had recognised in 1966-1967 and that it had undertaken to respect. It told us that in 1966 it agreed with Kampuchea because at that time it had to fight the American imperialists. So this is a deception. What's more, he proposed a new border demarcation plan that cut off a large part of our maritime waters. For us, this is expansionism and annexationism. It is not friendship. Because we are small, it puts pressure on us. But we did not accept. So the negotiations did not produce any results.
At the same time as these negotiations, the Vietnamese continued to attack us along the border to force us to submit. But we did not give in. Having fought hard against the imperialists and their henchmen, we cannot accept being slaves to Vietnam. Neither our people nor our army can accept that. Now, how do we solve this problem? We will solve it according to the concrete situation. If Vietnam really respects our independence and sovereignty, if it is genuinely friendly towards us, there will be no difficulty in resolving the problem. We can do it straight away. But if Vietnam persists in wanting to take over Kampuchea, we must defend our independence, our sovereignty and our territorial integrity. We believe that our difficulties will evolve and can be resolved gradually.
Q : Many people in the world write, with or without reason, that your country is very closed. Do you intend to open up more to the whole world, on what principles and in what direction?
Since the Liberation, we've welcomed friends as we've gone along. After Liberation, we had many problems to solve, we had to organise the country, solve the problems posed by the living conditions of the people, in other words, we had to develop our country, our home. We are convinced that in the future, even more friends will come. We are opening our country to friends. We will invite and welcome more and more friends to our home, to our country, and we will develop and strengthen our friendship with all friendly peoples and countries. As for the personalities and various organisations who have shown their friendship and their spirit of justice towards Kampuchea, we have invited them to visit our country and we will invite others. We are convinced that more and more friends will come to visit our country. But we also need to make our home more attractive and more welcoming to our guests.
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